Elliot Wilen ([info]ewilen) wrote,
@ 2006-02-08 11:52:00
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Entry tags:immersion, paradigms, scenario construction

Situations and Stories
Things seem to happen in waves in the RPG blabosphere.

Anyway, Chris Chinn has been putting up some practical advice on how to develop scenarios which I find interesting and potentially useful. Find it here.

Meanwhile both RPG.net and Harnforum (free registration required) have been getting into the same practical issues of how to create scenarios that involve the characters. (Another RPG.net thread, started by Levi Kornelsen is here.) The most interesting element of these discussions, for me, is the paradigm clash between the idea of "adventure hooks" and the idea of "flags" or "player-driven" scenarios. The most depressing element is the way that "player-driven" scenario-building is repeatedly caught up in the ideology of "story", such that if you don't have a "player-driven story", then either the GM must be leading the players around by the nose, or nothing particularly interesting happens.

I find this ironic and to illustrate why, I'll offer a completely unfair analysis of Dogs in the Vineyard as a game where the players are forced into taking cowboy defenders of the faith as their PCs, because, you know, if your friend purchases the book and gets you to play the game, that's your only choice. Player empowerment is not absolute; once you buy into playing the game with other people, you're always giving up some of your power to control the scope and expression of game elements, including your own character. At the same time, everyone else including the GM is giving up some of their power to you. It's your job to make the most of this arrangement, and exactly how you do it has a highly complex, non-isomorphic relationship to whether you're "authoring a story" or doing something entirely different.

I think for a certain class of roleplayers ("immersionists", "simulationists", or anyone whose primary goal is to "experience the fictional world" without regard to "theme" or "Premise" but certainly with regard to "interest"), it's probably useful to take up an alternative to Forge-inspired "protagonism", in a combination of "PC proactivity" and "PC magnetism". By the latter I mean construction of PCs such that, even if they don't go looking for interesting things to do, the nature of their role in life means that interesting things will happen to them. And by interesting, I mean no more or less than things which the player of the PC will enjoy dealing with, and which the other people around the table will enjoy interacting with either actively or as audience. A prime example of a proactive character is the entrepreneurial rogue or the seeker of arcane mysteries. "Magnetic" characters are often what I think of as "static responsibles"--a sheriff, for example, or a land owner. However, troubleshooters like superhero teams and superspies are also largely "magnetic" in that their presumed responsibilities tend to result in missions and crises being thrust on them.

For my purposes it's important to note where player-character interests converge and where they diverge. The player always wants interesting things, while the character perhaps not so much, unless he's proactively creating them. By definition, a problem is something that the character would just as soon avoid, or certainly something that he didn't deliberately bring on himself. It's still something the player craves, but for the sake of player-character identification, it's not something the player wants to generate himself.

(I really need a better term than "PC magnetism" since it's a bit on the whimsical and idiosyncratic side, and I prefer to use jargon that's easily grasped on the first pass. I am tempted to say "PC fitness"--but that's too close to Vincent's terminology.)

Some might see this paradigm as no more than an expression of Narrativist campaign/scenario construction. That may be, but where I think it differs from the outlook that inspires common Narrativist techniques, and indeed rejects the common GNS concept of Incoherence, is that it takes player interest, flexibly defined, as the central value instead of the literary/dramaturgical concept of Premise. For game systems, this paradigm also offers as a benchmark the ability to engage the interest of the players by providing mechanics that are actually enjoyable ways of negotiating/resolving the events of the imagined world. That is, if the combat mechanics of a given game are enjoyable in themselves, then the players' interests might well focus on situations that allow them to exercise those mechanics. Yet those players may have no special interest in combat per se--give them an enjoyable system of social conflict resolution, and they may gravitate toward political or social scenarios.

Hm, while searching for another thread I came across this one on the Forge, where it looks like some of the same issues are hashed out. Just including it here for future reference; I haven't read it closely yet.

Lee Short also covers some related ground in his work-in-progress Star Moon Cross, particularly in the campaign prep discussion of "what kinds of activities do you envision your character engaging in"?



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[info]yeloson
2006-02-08 10:55 pm UTC (link)
...is that it takes player interest, flexibly defined, as the central value instead of the literary/dramaturgical concept of Premise.

Shadow of Yesterday really fits this idea. You can choose Keys that are not much more than the equivalent of Flagging player interests and Advantages/Disadvantages if, as a player, that's all you want. Likewise Universalis also easily falls into this category.

I think the reason we keep hearing about "games stalling out" without a solid push/pull system, is that historically we've had a lot of games built on really bad communication techniques that left us with the 20 minutes of fun to 4 hours ratio. Granted, interesting stuff can happen without formal means to push it, but it's more luck and group social contract than a feature of the game.

I'm definitely waiting to see some good focused Sim design, and see what comes of it.

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-08 11:38 pm UTC (link)
Well, I wonder how much of it can simply be accomplished through improved GMing/playing guidelines. Which is basically what I've been about much of the time in this LJ: there are quite a few games out there with excellent takes on "how to roll dice" and "how to make your character better". (Harnmaster has my favorite take so far on "how to lose your leg to gangrene". It's fun!) The problem is contextualizing all these mechanics through plausible, engaging scenario construction, and then some method of addressing the metagame problems inherent in the mechanics. ("Yay, my leg was amputated and I almost died of shock! Oh, wait...") Which isn't to say there might not be more mechanical methods of providing context. I put up some ideas in the "proactivity" link, using some of John Kim's work as a launch pad.

Anyway, TSOY is near the top of my list already for stuff to try out next...checking...oh, it is at the top of the list.

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[info]thededine
2006-02-08 11:57 pm UTC (link)
First off, I really really like "PC Magnetism." It may be a little whimsical, but it's far more easily grasped at first pass than something bland like "PC Fitness." Bleh.

I forget if I got you to read through FLFS, but the player flags regardless of creative agenda being used to construct the situation is pretty much the chassis of the game. More and more I'm finding situation creation procedures to be more important than character generation rules. Next design I'll have to try and merge them into one process.

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-09 12:29 am UTC (link)
Nope, I haven't read through FLFS. I'd love to take a look. I'll contact you.

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[info]marcochacon
2006-02-09 12:56 pm UTC (link)
The latest version of my present project (JRevised) has an explict method that is similar to flags (I hadn't seen the Flags thing so it's a co-development). The players are responsible for coming up with two separate potential conflicts and providing certain kinds of specifics about how they might show up in the game (these are called Trajectories. Flags is a better term, alas).

The book has a section on Scenario Design right after Character Design (i.e. each gets designed before play starts). The GM's job is to integrate one of the two trajectories the same way that the player's job is to make a vaild character with regards to the situation foundation (the basic small-p premise of the scenario).

I believe that the idea of a "fit character" (or magnetic character, or whatever) is an especially valid one and one that has been problematic for a lot of people. It's my observation that immersion as some kind of concept has had a history of difficulty in GNS and related conversations.

But the "fit" concept really does, IMO, solve a lot of the problem--and it solves it elegantly where people are willing to cooperate on that.

Dogs in DitV are, almost universally, "fit." I mean, if I play a disaffected Dog who is breaking from the group and traveling east to New York, that *could* be a problem--systemically there's no reason it couldn't be handled to some degree ... but if there is *no way* I feel the character can be convinced by a theological argument, I believe the system could still produce that result (I mean, I could negoitate with the Player who demands those stakes--but I am not clear to me if I can, as a PC, simply *reject* the stakes if the GM agrees to them).

However, the game, like traditional dugneon-crawling D&D, when played properly, has a narrow enough scope that this is almost never (never?) a problem.

When you get to wide open games (GURPS), though, it becomes far more tricky, which is what brought about the Character Trajectories thoughts in the first place.

-Marco

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-09 07:24 pm UTC (link)
Interesting to see a bit of convergence here, what I would think of as transcending the GNS categories while paying attention to the fundemental concept that everybody in a game needs to be on the same page--even if they aren't all doing the same thing, they at least need to work at fitting their interests together.

Dropping back down to the character level, I just want to clarify my taxonomy. I'm proposing two kinds of characters, both of them "fit": proactive characters who make things happen, and magnetic characters who invite things to happen to them.

Huh, sounds a bit like Mo's Push and Pull. At this point I'm not going to claim it's the same thing or that one is a subset of the other, because I don't fully understand the concept. I do get the impression that she's talking more on the interpersonal level whle I'm working on the character/world level. However, since I'm focused on the idea of player-character identification (and also GM-world identification), there's an obvious analogy. So I need to keep an eye on what other people are doing with the push/pull idea.

Now, one thing about this taxonomy is that characters don't always stay in their category. In epic stories, picaresque tales, and some novels--not to mention sometimes in real life--people shift back and forth between being proactive opportunists and reactive authorities and troubleshooters. So an important complication of applying this paradigm is figuring out when and how to shift between these two types of scenario. In my earlier proactivity entry ("Ramblings on El Dorado") I proposed a formal or informal "substrate" model which would allow both inputs by the player-characters and outputs directed toward the player-characters. But that's very rough and it doesn't necessarily address the question of "interest". I suppose the latter could be handled through a sort of character-based filter, plus a scaling timeline. That is, the scope of things that can happen to a character is defined by player preference. There would also be a sort of frequency factor which would modulate interaction with the substrate (i.e., how fast/hard do you want to be hit by substrate outputs) and a way of fast-forwarding the time scale to skip over periods of routine activity without significant PC initiatives or external events.

(Note that the substrate model is only one approach to the proactive/magnetic paradigm, and it's oriented more toward a continuous, long-term campaign. For a one-shot, switching between modes is less of an issue.)

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[info]marcochacon
2006-02-09 07:33 pm UTC (link)
There's a lot to reply to there.

1. I am not sure that Fit vs. Magnetic is a real distinction. While proactive vs. reactive can be (or plot-hook characters vs. goal-driven characters), I believe that "fit" simply means "designed to plug into whatever premise is extant in the game."

That is: if I make an alcoholic who drinks because he can't forgive himself for stuff he did "in the war" years ago and either game *revolves* around that or I *bring it to the game* and it works then the character is "fit."

That conflict could be either Magnetic or "fit" under your taxonomy depending on how it played out, I think.

2. The substrate model (Flags, trajectories, etc.) is, IMO, a complex dynamic. If I prise versimilitude then I do not want heavy focus on the substrate at all times. I want it done very "organically." If I prise getting to make statements about my chosen conflicts, then I want that (and maybe nothing but that if I'm extreme).

3. As I have said, I think El Dorado as an impossible thing is a mistake. IME what most people practically want from El Dorado is accomplishable via front loading.

Addendum: Everything we are talking about has existed before in the form of backstory (D&D) and even more explicitly disadvantages (Champions). The focus on getting more explicit about how these elements are integrated into the game is, IMO, what's new.

-Marco

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-09 08:53 pm UTC (link)
Here's the distinction between Fit and Magnetic. Fit (in a rough-and-ready interpretation of Vincent's paradigm) includes both magnetic and proactive. They're subsets of Fit, but they're also perspectives on Fit as viewed through a fairly strong player-character identification. And also, admittedly, biased toward a certain subgenre of gaming along the D&D-Runequest-Harnmaster axis. As well as being reflective of my own limited experiences. (For example, I've never played or even read Pendragon, but what I've heard about it makes it seem like it might be right up my alley.)

So basically, the proactive player-character is Fit because he has the motivation and ability to initiate his own scenarios, combined with a solid enough world (or less immersively, player authority) so that he can meaningfully identify and interact with opportunities. The proactive character asks "Where's the dungeon?", then he goes out and loots it (or dies trying).

The magnetic player-character is Fit because he has the ability to handle scenarios thrust onto him. Or more precisely, because the player is interested in the types of scenarios that may be generated because of who the character is. The magnetic secret agent asks "What's my job?", then he goes out and solves it.

Now these may not seem very different but in practice I think they are. For example a magnetic PC will interact with the GM through Flags that the GM will then use for scenario-framing. Or he will offer a number of receptors or sockets that the substrate can plug into. The proactive PC is more likely to insist that that the GM provide a menu of options to choose from, or best of all, a map that he can then approach from whatever angle he pleases.

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[info]marcochacon
2006-02-10 02:21 pm UTC (link)
Okay, I can certainly buy that. I think my confusion was that I was framing things solely in terms of Trajectories--which can be either depending on how they are woven into the game. I think that a lot of emphasis has been built in game theory on proactive characters (and push) rather than magentic characters (and maybe "pull").

-Marco

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-10 07:36 pm UTC (link)
Funny, I see it exactly the opposite way. I think that from the PC's perspective, Kickers are a kind of "socket", a pull mechanism. The formulation of the idea of Bangs as something that the GM supplies to willing players also sounds like a pull mechanism from the PC's perspective. As well, the fact that PC's in DitV are constructed so as to interact with a specific kind of GM-framed scenario strikes me as a pull mechanism.

Now, before someone gets all in my face about these evaluations: (1) What I know of Sorcerer comes from reading Adept and Sorceror and Sword. (2) What I know of Dogs is from reading just the player-oriented sections and playing one game. (3) This is just a kind of heuristic model, not gospel truth, and if you move up or down the scale from campaign construction to task or conflict resolution, I know you can find instances where the push/pull flips rapidly back and forth. The goal of the model is to help us discover something of practical benefit, not to stand as an unassailable descriptive theory.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2006-02-10 06:54 am UTC (link)
Hey, Elliot. I missed your previous post on "Ramblings on El Dorado, Bangs, and Proactivity" where you respond to my essay on proactive PCs. I'll reply here at the moment, and try to fit it to the topic. (If you'd prefer me to reply on the earlier topic, I can switch.)

On pro-activity, you say about my status quo requirement: "I would suggest instead that it's enough for characters to have needs and interests. And rather than talking about the status quo, it's enough to say that the setting will automatically penalize inertia and reward action." I think this is a distinction you get at here with magnetism. Proactivity isn't necesary if you have sufficient magnetism. The distinction of status quo is necessary for good play, but I think it's necessary for proactivity. If the setting is actively penalizing inertia and rewarding interesting action, then the game is being driven by the setting-controller rather than by proactive PCs.

Your example is a thief who steals to put food on the table. I don't think that such a character will produce interesting adventures absent intentional GM plot hooks. Unless these are extreme circumstances, putting food on the table isn't interesting material for adventures. Now, if you have a thief who wants to be a millionaire -- that's potentially proactive goal-seeking.

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[info]lumpley
2006-02-10 03:06 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'll be the one: this paradigm is no more than an expression of Narrativist campaign/scenario construction.

"...it takes player interest, flexibly defined, as the central value instead of the literary/dramaturgical concept of Premise."

The concept of premise is built out of observations of players' interest (well really, writers' and audiences' interest - but players are writers and audiences).

Show me something about a character that a) its creators are interested in, and b) leads to interesting things happening (via proactivity and/or magnetism) - show me that thing, and I'll show you a premise.

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-10 07:15 pm UTC (link)
That's okay, Vincent. I'm more concerned with conceptualizing and communicating campaign/scenario construction in a way that's palatable to people who have been put off by the language of the Narrativist school, than I am in proving that such and such a method is innovative or different.

(A brief argumentative aside: if non-Narrativism isn't concerned with players' interest, then how can it be enjoyable? See how that risks sliding into a repeat of your Simulationism shitstorm discussion? And for what practical benefit?)

All right, I will disagree on one concrete point. I'm not looking for "no more than an expression". What I'm talking about may be an expression of Narrativist techniques, but I'm looking for value added in terms of application to specific needs. A P-51D Mustang was no more than an expression of the ideas of the Wright brothers. But that doesn't devalue all the research, development, and practice from 1903-1943.

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-10 09:28 pm UTC (link)
Hm. Refinement of metaphor. A Mustang and a Catalina are expressions of the same fundamental ideas. Couldn't use one to do what the other does.

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[info]lumpley
2006-02-11 04:55 am UTC (link)
What I really should just have said is:

Elliot, if you go to the Forge and reread a bunch of our posts, and everywhere we say "premise" you read us to mean "the players' interests, flexibly defined, as made manifest in characters who're proactive or magnetic" I think you'll find that a) a lot of it is more clear than it has been to you, and b) a lot of it is really useful, interesting stuff.

That's all.

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-12 02:58 am UTC (link)
Thanks, Vincent. I'll definitely keep that in mind as I browse.

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[info]neelk
2006-02-11 01:13 am UTC (link)
I'll take you up on that one, 'cuz I think you're wrong.

Joe's a PC. The thing that I'm intested in is that Joes has terminal cancer, and has a year to live, with maybe six months outside of the hospital. What's the premise?

The answer is: there isn't one, yet. You need other characters and a conflict before you can look at Joe and figure out what's up with him from a story pov. Without those, Joe's just a joe. Now, this NOT a refutation of your claim, because maybe later on in play enough stuff can be made up to create a context where you *can* figure out a premise.

Instead, I'm saying here's this really weird thing: you can run a Joe as a perfectly successful character even if he never comes within a mile of an engaging conflict during the entire game. For example, suppose you've read Susan Sontag's Illness as Metaphor, and are thinking about how the words for illness and the words for moral judgement intersect interact. So you bring in Joe, in order to see how that changes what the other players say. This can include stuff that's not in the story, like "random" table talk.

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-13 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Just a little note to add a link to John Marron's entry in his livejournal, where he talks about prepping for Situation-Driven play. Link.

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[info]ewilen
2006-02-26 01:25 am UTC (link)
And still more promising links:

RPGNet: Confessions of a former story addict
RPGNet: [Theory]: Player Types: Active vs Reactive

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[info]ewilen
2006-05-20 12:04 am UTC (link)
Also potentially of interest: Chris Chinn's followup post on The Conflict Web.

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[info]ewilen
2007-10-05 03:25 pm UTC (link)
Look here for that last one.

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