Elliot Wilen ([info]ewilen) wrote,
@ 2008-08-18 12:55:00
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Meta-enjoyment (or Deep Thoughts)
Hopefully briefer than the previous, and more directly influenced by the inevitable reaction to Grey Ranks winning the Indie RPG Awards.

So I will take part in that inevitable reaction, by asking: between the "high mindedness" of the game's theme, and the intricate interlocking rules structures, is this really a game that is played to be played, or a game that's played by jaded designers and critics because they're curious about said mechanics and/or how one might attempt to address a subject like this in game form? What's the difference?

I've never seen the game; I don't know the answer. A friend who participated in playtesting (and will remain anonymous) told me that the game wasn't really fully-baked rules-wise and the designer didn't seem receptive to problem reports--but that was quite a while ago, and whatever problems there were could well have been ironed out before release. I do have a general experience with the supposed clarity of Forge-y games, which forms part of my bias.

Anyway, I feel this must be a subject that's been dealt with in art criticism, but I wouldn't even know where to start. For me, it boils down to this: is there a point, particularly as a creator or critic, that you start to get equal or more enjoyment by analyzing "how" something works, compared to enjoying it for itself?

I have several caveats for those (including myself) who wish to pursue this line of thought:

• Enjoying exploring "how" something works almost requires that it works to begin with--to an extent. E.g., we get more enjoyment tracing the artifice and references in Shakespeare, notwithstanding anecdotes about deconstructing the backs of cereal boxes. On the other hand, this applies only "to an extent" with RPGs because "how" an RPG works always involves the participants; this turns the question from "how it works" (appreciation) to a "how can we make it work?" (interpretive praxis). If you enjoy figuring out how to make a game work, does that take you yet a further step away from enjoying the game itself?

• And even so, if "how can we make it work?" is the level of enjoyment you get, is that any less of a valid criterion for enjoying a game? I.e., isn't being thought-provoking a value in itself? Where does it stand in the hierarchy of enjoyment?

• Finally, how great of a distinction is there, really, between enjoying the thing in itself, and enjoying the process of its creation and interpretation?

I don't think I will be finding conclusive answers to these questions any time soon.

Besides, maybe Grey Ranks is just plain fun and ought to be on the shelf of Toys 'R Us next to Risk and Battleship.



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[info]tcpip
2008-08-18 11:48 pm UTC (link)
The distinction between appreciation and interpretative praxis in general is a very good one. Whilst interpretative praxis can be an interesting process in its own right, I greatly prefer those games which do not require such a collaborative approach in making the system do what the participants want it to do. Clarity and flexibility in design are good features; I ummm.. appreciate them. :)

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[info]ewilen
2008-08-19 12:16 am UTC (link)
"Interpretative"? Thanks for an enjoyable side-trip to the dictionaries on that one. (Summary of findings: the extra syllable is traditional, but on the way out.)

You've hit on an interesting topic; I've touched on it before, most recently here. I've mainly argued that having an interpretive praxis (aka "paradigm") is unavoidable with RPGs, but it's perhaps an open question as to how it can be developed and what the "right" way is to develop one.

Clarity and flexibility (to use your terms if not necessarily your meanings) are two approaches, for sure.

Clarity: "this is what the game is about."

Flexibility (aka socialization): "you can do anything that you and your group want to do."

Another might be called "entrainment": "just play the game and you'll find out what it's about."

Another is serendipity: "if you like it you like it, if you don't, then try another game".

And finally (for now at least) "induction": "I can't tell you how to have fun, but if you're having fun, you're doing it right." Sort of like a public-key approach, where the rules are the public key.

All of these contribute in varying degrees, in real life, I'm sure.

(This comment is definitely half-baked, at most...)

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[info]foreign_devilry
2008-08-19 12:11 pm UTC (link)
Honestly, I find it more problematic that voting for RPG awards, whether it's the ENies or Indie RPG or what have you, is frequently done by people who haven't played the game in question, sometimes folks who haven't even read it or even flipped through a copy. So it's hard to know how much credit to really give awards in the first place.

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[info]marcochacon
2008-08-19 12:17 pm UTC (link)
Ahh! This is why of all the categories and submissions, the only ones you should give credence to are the free ones!

-Marco
/it's a joke (I have free-game / supplement indie awards)

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[info]foreign_devilry
2008-08-19 01:55 pm UTC (link)
No, definitely. You're going to be competing with me for those next year, dude. I'm warning you now! (I do agree that awards for free games at least give voters the possibility of reviewing products before voting, but it's hard to know how many take the time. I bet not all that many, except in the ENies where the judges are required to.)

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[info]marcochacon
2008-08-19 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Just to say: We didn't have an entry in this past year. JAGS Revised Archetypes has taken two full years. It's also not the sort of thing that'll win any awards when it does come out.

Also: I fortunately do get a good chance to run and play Indie games over here (a group member buys all of them).

It's my hope that people download JAGS books to look at the artwork even if they don't like (or even actively dislike) the mechanics!

-Marco

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[info]ewilen
2008-08-19 02:29 pm UTC (link)
No disagreement here. I was going to say that there was some sort of mechanism in the Indie awards to give greater weight to votes by people who were more familiar with a given game (based on text here and here) but the method isn't clear at all.

As long as we're discussing it though, something I find problematic is the idea that the awards are "fair and unbiased". I mean, these awards are chosen by people, not machines, and certainly for categories like "best", bias is inherent.

For the Ennies, this is probably true in a de facto sense, but at least it would seem the judges are charged with taking a broad view of "quality". With the Indie awards, things are more confused. To begin with, the judging pool consists only of the people who have themselves published indie games, and there's an obvious controversy over whether this is meant to deliberately favor "non-mainstream" tastes (whatever those are) over "mainstream". Or to put it another way, is a judge supposed to vote for "the best" game, or the "most indie" game?

I don't really see a way to satisfy everyone in answering that question, and it's bound to make the Indie Awards more political as time goes by, unless a basically political decision is taken in restricting and instructing the judges. What I mean by this is, as long as John (or whoever runs the awards) sticks by the technical definition of "indie", I predict that eventually the judging pool will start to trend more towards people with "mainstream" tastes who just happen to use "indie" publishing methods. At that point, the issue you had with the Ennies over on Story-Games—"indie" games only winning when they cater to "mainstream" tastes—will start applying to the Indie Awards as well.

IMO a more sensible division of "award labor" among the whole gaming community would be to have a set of awards for small press games (a somewhat larger category than technical indie-ism) and then something else, maybe the Story-Games awards. The former would be chosen on general merit by a broadly representative panel; the latter would be chosen based on an openly "pro-indie-aesthetic" panel.

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[info]foreign_devilry
2008-08-19 03:05 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure what John Kim's intention are, so I don't really want to speculate there, but my understanding is that the judges pool is relatively static, though it may add those who've won top prizes (not sure). I'm not among the voters and Push 1 got second place in one of the categories. I honestly doubt the Indie RPG Awards are going to drift more to the "center" than they already do, for that reason, which is why I still think they're useful, at least as a marker of what new games the Old Guard of the New Small Press (the folks I imagine are in the voting pool) thinks is interesting. I get the sense that they'll continue to honor "maverick" games that are still pretty firmly within the post-Forge indie game comfort zone, which is gradually expanding (or at least shifting) over time.

So for my, admittedly, extreme tastes for innovation, it doesn't really honor the games that are banging at the bleeding edge, but it does honor games that pitch their tents on the banks of the edge, where things are more comfortable and clearly marked out. And that's still pretty cool, I think, though sometimes I worry that it's more based on the buzz / general feeling of games, rather than direct experience with them.

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[info]ewilen
2008-08-19 07:15 pm UTC (link)
John has said that the "every small press and indie RPG designer who released a commercial game in the past few years" was invited to vote on the awards this year. John has tried to be consistent in using "indie" to mean "creator-owned", so I conclude that the judges pool is based entirely on having published your own game.

For the 2006 I can't find any information on how judges were selected.

In 2005 and 2004 judges were selected from designers of both "mainstream" and "independent" games; it doesn't look like there was any principle under which people automatically qualified.

In 2003, all I can find is that the judges were "industry peers". A note in the 2002 archive states that everyone who voted in 2002 would be eligible to vote in 2003, so see below for at least part of the composition of the judging pool.

In 2002, you automatically qualified to vote if you had "released a for-pay, independently produced RPG or supplement in the past two years." The final vote also included designers of free games and zine designers.

In 2002-2003, voters were honor bound to indicate their familiarity with each category and would have their votes weighed higher if they were more familiar. Something similar was apparently used for the 2006-2007 awards as well, but the details are lacking. In 2004-2005, voters simply cast preference ballots in each category, worth 5, 3, and 1 points.

So to begin with, your concern about people voting based on "buzz" is partly (but only partly) mitigated by the weighting method. However, the composition of the voting pool is pretty much the worst of both worlds. John keeps trying to stick to the "creator owned" definition of "indie". In the short term this is misleading--well, it doesn't really fool anyone, but it comes across as disingenuous since "everybody knows" that "indie" = Forgie. In the long term, since there's no real aesthetic/ideological principle for becoming a judge or casting votes, I think it's very likely that the awards will drift more to the "center" as you put it, as more and more people shift to self-publishing simply for economic reasons.

And the whole time, the exclusion of small press games which aren't technically indie (e.g., apparently this includes Hinterwelt although I don't know the precise details) makes very little sense. Small press games can be just as maverick as narrowly "creator-owned", and the hobby will be broadened just as much by promoting them through awards.

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[info]foreign_devilry
2008-08-19 07:33 pm UTC (link)
The dilution-by-rapid-expansion of the term "indie" is definitely a seperate, but related, concern that I was hoping to talk a bit about at the Indie RPG Awards themselves, because John Kim asked me to present them in his absence before I had to bail on GenCon and pass the mic to Paul Tevis.

In a time in which RPGnow openly calls themselves the leading source for "indie games," it's clear that the post-Forge community has lost whatever monopoly they once had on the term. IPR abandoned "creator owned" for "three-tier adverse," which includes just about every company that distributes games through RPGnow, DriveThru, IPR, their own website, Lulu, or a host of other methods. However, the Indie RPG Awards, because of 1) the judges and 2) the self-selection of creators who bother to submit their products, is relatively old school still in its definition of "indie."

My general sense is that, while creator ownership is increasing, it's by-far not a given in roleplaying publishing and we're still far behind comics in this regard. However, it's pretty clear that almost every company is jumping on new distribution methods, making them all increasingly "indie" by IPR's standard, even if large numbers of books are still moving through three-tier. Honestly, I don't think the "alt roleplaying" community can rally around creator ownership and anti-three-tier anymore, because not all of us share those values and what's really holding us together right now is personal relationships: socializing and playing games with each other.

But that's something that's hard to build a set of awards around, right? Can you create a set of awards for "games written by people who've played Primetime Adventures, Dogs in the Vineyard, Polaris, and My Life With Master"? Not really. Because of that, I almost feel like John needs to rename the awards something like, "The Hippo Awards," to separate them from the increasingly unclear nature of "indie" and acknowledge that they're a somewhat arbitrary recognition of games that are important to a specific community.

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[info]ewilen
2008-08-19 07:51 pm UTC (link)
I agree with all of this except...you do know that "indie = creator owned no more no less" has been an official stance at the Forge since, well if not day 1, then for a very long time? It's basically the standard riposte to any criticism of "Forge/indie" behavior/attitudes/what-have-you, partly as a way of denying the existence of such a thing.

But there absolutely is a way to make an award that's for a particular community; however, it starts by acknowledging that fact and not effing pretending that the awards, or the community itself, are based on an economic rather than aesthetic criterion. What it will take is someone stepping up and saying it loud and proud, e.g., not to put you on the spot, by announcing the creation of the Push awards, with a clear statement of purpose, no promise of impartiality (even though cronyism needs to be prevented, but that's a different thing), and clear method of selecting judges.

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[info]foreign_devilry
2008-08-21 02:33 am UTC (link)
Certainly there's sometimes been the attitude that the Forge and Indie RPG Awards, in a certain sense, embodied all creator-owned games, whether they liked it or not. That sometimes worked better than others. The community has been able to build ties with folks like Evil Hat and Chad Underkoffler and Greg Stolze, but only so far. John Wick was tangentially involved, but is not especially attached. Bunches of other creator-owned games and their publishers have nothing to do with the Forge, including all the d20 internet publishers who aren't Justin Jacobson. But there was definitely, until relatively recently, a denial that the new school of small press games represented a specific style of design and play. We thought we were much more diverse than we actually were.

Honestly, though, I feel like that's changing. The community is growing too big and diverse for everyone to like everyone else's games anymore, even if you respect them. There's already a fairly significant divide over the Burning Wheel, which people either love or are completely intimidated by. I really do think that the post-Forge community will be less and less united by similar assumptions about play, especially as games become even more diverse (stuff goes Jeep, stuff goes the Agon/3:16 route, stuff goes the IAWA/Poison'd route, etc.). What'll ultimately be left is personal bonds between people. Hopefully that'll convince people to identify both themselves and the community as a whole in different ways.

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[info]ptevis
2008-08-21 04:24 am UTC (link)
What'll ultimately be left is personal bonds between people. Hopefully that'll convince people to identify both themselves and the community as a whole in different ways.

Quoted for truth.

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[info]ewilen
2008-08-21 06:51 pm UTC (link)
Over on theRPGSite, Jason Morningstar has come into a thread about the Indie RPG Awards and, of course, Grey Ranks. We discussed this issue of whom the Awards "represent", because Jason is apparently going to be helping with future organization of the Awards, and he commented that changing the name to the Small Press Awards would be good for outreach purposes.

He didn't address the question of how judges should be selected or guided. Maybe he'll discuss it here (I gave him a link to this discussion) or elsewhere. Without dealing with those issues, a simple name change isn't going to do anything, in fact it could just muddy the waters further.

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[info]foreign_devilry
2008-08-21 07:15 pm UTC (link)
Sure. Calling the awards the "Small Press RPG Awards" won't MAKE them automatically include or recognize all small press games. That's like how the ENies keep asking for indie participation and then the awards all go to Wizards and Paizo, whether indies enter or not.

Honestly, I don't think the awards need to include all small press games. Do the judges really think they want to read and play stuff by Louis Porter Jr. so they can vote on it? What happens when the newest post-Forge darling game doesn't win anything? Etc. Better to recognize that we are a community of people who converse and play games together and only reward games that the judges personally nominate (stop allowing outside submissions), as in the Diana Jones.

Call them the Anvil Awards.

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[info]jimboboz
2008-08-22 08:38 am UTC (link)
It's not compulsory to vote for all categories. I'd only seen one of the games, so I only voted for that one. But perhaps you don't want to rely on the integrity of the judges ;)

Unfortunately free pdf copies of the games are not automatically available to the judges, so that it's unlikely the judges will have seen all the games.

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